$100m SaaS companies pay this guy to help them stand out (workshop)

I'm on a quest to uncover the secrets to crafting the perfect SAS website in each episode I talk with product marketing professionals sharing their hot takes on the future of B2B websites as well as tactical breakdowns on how to better understand your customers and activate buyers faster today I'm joined by Anthony Pier a product marketer who has grown a large audience on LinkedIn over the last two years due to his tactical Frameworks and sometimes spicy takes on this episode's topic which is product positioning Anthony takes us through his new framework which helps B2B startups differentiate themselves and develop clear easy to understand product positioning even when in crowded product categories let's jump in okay Anthony so you've just started working with a new startup they've done their customer research their jobs to be done research what is the first step in developing their position what what would you guys take them through yeah yeah so the first thing we do before we actually get to any of the meat and potatoes of like making decisions we try to explain to them our model and they've seen bits and pieces of this from our LinkedIn post if they've been following us uh but we always try to get people so we're all using the same vernacular to understand these things um so it maybe even be helpful I could just share my screen and and even just taking something like defic uh like positioning in defining it so for us positioning is really really three different things and if you want to put it into equation we would say positioning is a combination of segmentation categorization and differentiation effectively answering three questions who is your product for what is it and why is it better than what they're using today if you can get those three things dialed in you have effectively tried to earn a spot in their brain you've created mental avail ability if you think of their brain as a bunch of shelves at the grocery store with different types of products or different types of food you've told them exactly where your product lives in which shelf in which part of the store so they have a mental framework of understanding what it is when they would buy it the value that it offers and ideally within the Shelf it's sitting on you're also explaining here's why we're different than the other things on the shelf right and there's all different ways that you can do this so those are the three things you have to get right and they are Loosely constituted by these five different elements we would call this a workflow or if you want to um use the language that you were using in the last session this is your job to be done it's a it's a functional activity that people are performing uh that puts them into a big bucket together right and then you have a competitive alternative you have the product category you have the problem of the competitive alternative and you have your unique value that you provide and this is a combination of things like Fe features benefits capabilities uh business model all sorts of stuff like that that makes you stand out in comparison to the competitive alternative so I'm gonna walk through an example if we talk about the company Loom their positioning if you said well who is loom for well it's for people who are providing regular updates to their co-workers and what are they using they're using the tool to do that of having regular meetings right then you say well Loom is a screen recording software screen recorder and why is it better than having a meeting because meetings are really unproductive everyone sits has to say they you know how they're doing and we get all this small talk and all of a sudden they're really long and we've wasted all this time and it's like couldn't this have just been an email that's the common phrase right and Loom we're basically saying well maybe not an email but what about a screen recording we let you record your screen and yourself at the same time so you can make really really concise powerful update videos to send to your co-workers and you'll drastically cut down down the time that you wasted meetings effectively what I've just done is I've said here's who it's for here's what it is and here's why it's better than what you've been using you could do this with duck Dogo I'll give you one more example right duck Dogo is for people who are searching and browsing the internet what are they using to do that they're using web browsers right and when we say well what's duck. go we are also a browser but unlike other browsers that track you we don't it's a completely private experience and so I've effectively positioned duck Dogo ideally to earn a spot they know what shelf it's on the browser shelf and they know what makes it different and why you would use it right you could do it for slack you could do it for a bunch but I'll pause there um thoughts comments anything worth diving into deeper before I keep going no I like it um I'm not sure if you get into different types of positioning I found that really useful um when sorry yeah yeah different types of position like whether you're using uh like an existing product or um based on on the market I don't know if you get to that but that would be interesting to dive into but no this is good no no mentions of increase in Revenue yet not yet no and they uh you'll see basically the combination of how these things match up determines different way like different types of positioning so for example and I won't go too deep in it yet we'll come back to it a little bit but you'll see here in Doc do go the alternative and your category when they are the same thing that is you're basically competing in a mature market right you're more red ocean whichever way you want to say it you're positioning yourself um and that has a lot of consequences of choosing that uh versus here I'm competing in a more immature category right I'm bringing screen recorder to this specific job to be done or workflow people don't really think about it that way right people weren't using screen recorders as ways to update their teams they use screen recorders for different things so they like oh I never thought about using that it's an emerging category for this specific workflow so we'll come back to that but those constitute definitely different types of positioning one thing that we always tell people and I'll use two different examples for this is that positioning is a long-term bet it's not a short-term experiment so me and my friends were in a band and this is kind of you know a silly example but when we started we could play lots of different styles of music we've been making music together for a long time so when we started we said what kind of band do we want to be one option is that we said we could be like do like this kind of Electronica stuff there was a cool genre we like the town called Vapor wave make Vapor Wave Music another option is a lot of us in the past had been like metal bands like you know like metal music Metallica or whoever you want to pick we could be a metal band or we had this idea we're like maybe we could be a pop punk band like blinkin 82 or Green Day or any of those bands and so at that moment we said well we need to make a decision this so this a positioning decision do we want to make pop punk music for people in their 20s and 30s who like this specific style in the early 2000s you want to make metal music for this group do you want to make this Vapor wave for this group and we decided to do the pop punk angle and we said let's make some pop punk music so we put out an EP it had three songs on it and it probably got streamed a thousand times on Spotify and if you know Spotify you get paid like 0000 five% of a penny for every Stream So a th000 streams was like like $3 or something you know maybe a dollar you could take that moment and say oh we got the positioning Rong it was a total flop but in reality takes a long time to actually win part of any Market it takes a long time to actualize that positioning so fast forward and this is not this is this I want to preface this we still are not making any money so this is not bragging uh you know we made a very little amount of money but if you if you take three years later we get close to million streams every month and we have roughly 100,000 people who listen to us on a monthly basis did we know that that was going to happen three years from when we started no because positioning it's a long-term bet if we had chosen Vapor wave would we be 10 times the size or would we be tiny and still have no fans it's really hard to know you can't really AB test these different positioning strategies because it takes a long time and you can use the example of right software of kly they've effectively been positioning the same way since 2017 they're going for the job to be done based segment of people scheduling meetings and they're going for the competitive alternative of back and forth emails and they really didn't they had that a verion where they had phone tag in there as well earlier on they chopped that off halfway through when they narrowed down the ICP even more and uh you know from 2017 to 2023 effectively they were doing the same thing right we're still eliminating back and forth emails we're still going for people scheduling meetings and that difference was from you know three million or all the way down from 100K all the way to maybe 250 270 Million last year so positioning is long-term bet uh any anything anything there you wanna you want to dig into or no a great great story so yeah I don't know it's a little silly but you know I think it helps make the silly uh you talked about this the last a lot in your last call so I won't I won't be labor the point too much we find that the most important way to segment a market is not necessarily by geography or business model or industry or Department while these are important the most important way to segment is with the job to be done or the workflow itself and that's because in B2B businesses are made up of workers doing work and they buy software to help them do specific parts of their work right so for us all B2B software is workflow software and so when you want to segment a market the most important thing to segment buy is the workflow or in your reor from last episode job to be done and these things are stuff that show up on a job description right you can imagine an account executive for an Enterprise right identify negotiate and close sales opportunities you probably already could imagine some software that would really help you do all three of these things right uh Prospect secure meetings you can picture which software would help with that workflow each of these individual dots and their sub points make up workflows stuff that would land on a calendar that's all workflows right these are things we're not talking increased Revenue increased revenue is not a workflow it's an outcome of jobs to be done it's an outcome of different workflows and so what we've discovered is you know different jobs to be done based segments or different workflow based segments uh different these things they're all different markets right so if you think about this is what we've called like a workflow map if you take a high level workflow like demand gen traditionally owned by marketing but doesn't have to be demand gen is probably broken up into smaller sub workflows attracting leads and nurturing and qualifying which could be even broken up into further sub ones running paid ads publishing content right how do we nurture we're going to send email campaigns all these types of things right so you have different levels different sizes of workflows some can be really long some can span across multiple different departments and others can be very very small and each of these like I said represents a different segment and companies have built very very successful businesses going after different sizes cly we give the example is really around this workflow of scheduling meetings right whereas someone else like gain sight is really saying we do everything in customer success we serve the endend job of customer success you can use gain site for all of it right and there's different things that come with the sizes if I pick all of customer success I can likely charge a lot more money for gain sight bigger ACV because I'm tackling a bigger part of their day potentially a bigger part of the department right it's it's end to end but it's going to be a longer sales cycle more people are going to have to the weigh in get on board you have a lot of procurement because it's going be bigger ACV all that stuff usually better suited for sales head growth on the flip side if I'm just snagging one little piece of the workflow with more of a point solution I can't charge as much but way faster sales cycle potentially I can do pure product Leed growth and no sales uh people need it at all right and this is how you get people like CLE who say well I'm going after the workflow based segment of people who are scheduling meetings that workflow that little itty bitty slice shows up in a million broader workflows in every Department in every industry that you can imagine and so you can get something like this we have 20 million users you know big enterprise software they don't have 20 million users because there's so many less Enterprises that are going to buy the end end thing at the high so so there's trade-offs right and on the flip side you pick a high level workflow like someone like Clary and they say we do everything you need to run revenue and so I'm like oh interesting so you support all these sub workflows below and they're like well no not really so what ends up happening is when you choose too high level of a workflow you get confusion what am I actually going to do in Clary right kind of a mystery you challenge the believability of the claim will you really let me run paid ads that's a big part of why we get Revenue well no we don't really do that and then also you can increase the competitive landscape right because like I said there's software for every single one of these boxes really deep entrenched competition and so the higher I go the more competitors come into The Fray that I need to unseat if I'm going to own the whole end end thing um and right way more people who need to weigh in to buy it so we get some stuff like that um sometimes too like people will Target workflows multiple different workflows like stripe for example they have a product that contributes to carbon removal that's usually owned by Corporate social responsibility you know they also let you incorporate your startup in Delaware it's usually owned by a Founder they let you verify by user identities right stripe identity Atlas these are three completely different unrelated workflows so they have to position them separately they have to create different positioning strategies for these separate products or so that's the one option or you do what ripling does you squish them all together you create the new category you say these typical things all these little Point solutions they belong in a Workforce platform and so you go out there and you have to position this whole new category so for us that's like all like the um that's like the you could say like this is the most important part of what we've realized from working with so many companies is kind of the impacts of which workflow based segment you choose that's I'll pause there though any thoughts questions stuff you want to Diamond more no I I really like this this is a uh this is well polished it it just feels like what you're saying like resonates so deeply you know I I work with a bunch of startups and it it almost feels like you're connecting the dots that have existed for a while you know startups struggling why do people not understand what we do how do we commun communicate our message and I think this is just such a realistic view of looking at it you know what are the workflows what what are the functional reasons somebody is going to um use your product to that end you I think you've worked with a bunch of startups is this a a common issue that you see with startups are either trying to solve you know the customer success problem um you know while while they're only an itty bitty start up to to use your language like is this a common problem you you come across and how do you if so how do you get that start up to sort of Niche down and go off you know position for that one workflow in instead yeah I think now the framing that I showed before that you're really choosing a bet I think it's helped people understand it more than they were um because a lot of times when you say like do you want to do a more skinny small workflow right like just this people get really scared because they're like oh I'm I'm lopping off so much of the market but it's helpful when you have it with this multi workflow like the KY example it's like well yeah but if I do a really big wide one I'm actually in a way nashing further I'm I'm narrowing the amount of people who could use my product even more by choosing a really big long workflow and like we see this happen too like when companies work with let's say design Partners so they partner with some Enterprise to build the product when you get to Enterprise level and you're building a product for the Enterprises custom bespoke you know giant companywide workflow it usually only works for that company because if you're 50,000 person company you partner with them you build this thing all of a sudden you're no longer really a product you're a Consulting service that delivers a customized software experience and then these companies that work with the design Partners they get locked in early they're like well this company's giving us a million dollars a year and then they go to try to sell that to other people and they're like well my Enterprise has a completely different process and all of a sudden they can't scale it because they've built a a Spoke solution in their minds the ACV clouded them that this is not going to be able to scale and so it's really level setting of like what really is a market because a market of one is not enough to build a scaling startup right like even if it's your you know I mean you could argue if you're building something for the US government and it's a billion dollar contract like okay fine you have a of one in your a billion dollar company who cares uh but most people are not doing that right they want to get more customers and so it's really about figuring out what's the right level what's the what's the Chunk we want to bite off that we think actually will show up time and time again and honestly the bigger problem with most companies is is more like this uh and they're not stripe and they are saying well we just do like all these different things can't we sell them all at once and they don't realize that if I want to sell carbon removal workflow incorporation Del Delaware workflow and verify user workflow these are going to be completely different go to market strategies right these people don't hang out together not they're not in the same slack groups they're not comparing software together it's going to take a bunch more than they can actually bite off and that's a common problem when the startups are allinone where they're like we've taken these seven different products we're selling them all in one and it's like does anyone buy all seven of those products and in reality just no because they belong to seven different workflows with seven different department so there isn't really a real consolidation argument if someone really isn't doing all of the things if that makes sense yeah yeah absolutely yeah I think it's for those watching like it's very easy to nod your head to this stuff what you're saying like I am um and like yeah makes sense but I feel like it's a completely different Beast to actually take it seriously and and and act upon it um like when when I've worked with startups it it often has to get to the point where like okay yeah we're we're really tired of like you know growth being stagnated like we're going to start taking this seriously um I particularly see it appear with Venture back startups where I think they're they struggle to you know they're constantly selling the vision to invest in right this is how we become a billion dollar company and they really struggle to sort of break that down into the shortterm positioning or the short-term product strategy of you know start starting somewhere small but this is super viable in the end to your same point like the show Silicon Valley right like the part where he says you know we should go get some revenue and he's like no no no you want to be pre-revenue if you're pre-revenue anything's possible right and like Founders live in this example they're like well this could be used in these 10 different Industries and it's like okay which one do you want to go win first with your one marketing person and they're like oh shoot I would have to choose and all of a sudden it becomes this existential crisis and they don't want to do it right they're like it's so much more fun just to live in VC land where the possibilities are so great we're getting all this money we're bought our office you know we got a Cool brand and stuff it's like all right great now which workflow-based segment are you going to go win first and then they're like oh no and everything kind of comes apart at the SCS yeah so real so okay so let me share my screen so really first part of your target audience uh is the is the workflow that they're doing the second thing which people often do not include in a target audience is the competitive alternative and this has big ramifications for how you actually position and I can show you why right competitive Alternatives again don't have to be direct vendors in your Cate or like we'll see startups in why combinator and they're like well there's another startup in Tech Stars that's doing the same thing as us they're our competitor and I'm like no they're probably not uh a lot of times it can be another product category altogether right slack replaces email they're positioned against a different product category Loom replaces meetings they're positioned against this method uh this was company called around they got bought by Meo they were positioned against an actual vendor in their same category and then um this C called user evidence we worked with them former client and basically they say don't you know go around asking your customers one by one for case studies so they're positioned against a process of just asking people this manual process so competitive Alternatives come in different flavors so the combination of the workflow people who are doing cold Outreach as an example using sales engagement tools that is the non-negotiable part of a market segment the rest of the stuff it's kind of like cherry on the top right if I have everyone doing cold Outreach with sales and engagement tools I can further sub segment to be like and I really only want to Target people in the EU and I really only want to Target them in insurance and I really only want to get headcount of this that type of stuff can be helpful in very specific go to market motions at the level of positioning it's not always necessary sometimes if you just nail these first two is really really powerful um then we get to product category and this is like where a lot of stuff really you know the the hits the fan if I'm allowed to swear you can bleep that out if you want but when it comes to product category you really have these three options the first option is you put yourself in a mature well-known category uh and this has this has benefits right if I say I'm an e signature platform and I say I'm e signature you I don't need to educate you when an that e signature platform is most people know it's very mature stable category so the sales Cycles are going to be quicker people are looking for E signature they know what they want there's a real Market because we can look at Panda do we can look at DocuSign we can look at whoever know that these are big companies There's real money to be made uh there's a dedicated line item probably for for this type of software problem it's going to be more red ocean we're going to have competition there's a lot of big players there's price anchoring sometimes people like expect an e signature platform to cost a certain amount uh there maybe as negative associations if people like oh I don't want an e signature that's so blah right you know or compliance people hate those I don't know uh and then potentially you could be late to the game with distribution like some of the big players will have dedicated long-term relationship with Enterprises and you'll have to break in so the second option is you pick the emerging like usually sexy category something that's like less well known it's getting VC backing people are pouring mondy into it way less competition uh Less Price anchoring people don't really know what it should cost because it's new uh you don't really have negative associations because people again don't really know what it is you can get a head start in your distribution because the big guys haven't prioritized it yet still seems like too small of an opportunity so can go out there and start stealing Market chare before the big incumbents really want to turn their you know ships towards you problem is you're going to have to spend a ton of money on education way longer sales Cycles because you have to explain all this stuff you're GNA be fighting for Budget you're going to try to get them to take their budget from one place bring it to your new category and then there's a risk that the category just doesn't materialize it all it doesn't happen like three or four two maybe two three years ago there was a big category called Product L sales uh it was getting all this attention there's companies like endgame poke kixa and it was like VC's pouring money into it and then it just didn't really take uh plg as a practice kind of fell out a favor it didn't like you know a lot of plg related stuff was kind of not working and that was like because of uh all sorts of post Zer era things like pandemic hype bubble kind of burst and all of a sudden we're like we need sales people let's go close and big deals so PLS all these people who spend all this time educating why PLS needs to exist why you need a PLS platform suddenly found themselves in a really precarious spot because nobody wanted anything to do with it and a bunch of the businesses went out of business uh kixa goes out of business correlated goes out of business and then the the survivors had to Pivot to new things endgame doesn't call himself that anymore Pocus doesn't call himself anymore so everyone had to flee so there's risks right this is the potentially potentially bigger return but higher risk this is like safer but potentially lower return right you might not be a billion dollar company in this one but you have a higher likelihood of being a 10 million or 15 million or $20 million company right it's it's a little little tiny sliver of a chance of being a billion dollar company here but a high chance of being a nothing dollar company right and then the third option is you just make up a name like I don't fit in any category I'm just making stuff up uh we just say this we don't think you should do this some people do we say no like if you have to coin the category you're in a lot of trouble CU like almost every category wasn't coined by a specific company like the media coined it or review people coined it like uh Uber and Lyft did not coin the phrase ride sharing that like had already existed it was a category that like formed collectively right so if you have to name it yes I always say that the one benefit you get to do the really fun splashy LinkedIn post check it out we created a new category but then uh everyone makes fun of you like when doc you sign said no no no we don't do e signature anymore we're intelligent agreement management and they were just corated by all the internet I'll pause here though because I would say I just threw a lot more at you no no no this is really good stuff we can keep going I mean um I guess as as someone who's you know recently become a startup founder will be launching this year uh this is also interesting for me um would you say then it's it's when entering the market you should you should definitely have a category that you can name like you should you should put label on it and if if you're not doing that then you are sort of in that danger zone where maybe you're kind of pushing yourself too far to the right oh there's an exception though there's there's I think in general yes there's an exception if you are doing a really really specific use case like if you think of that um you know something down here you don't necessarily need to because usually if you're coming in trying to slice Away by by solving a hypers specific paino you actually don't need to say a category for a while and even back to that cly example right you don't see them ever say a category until let's see 2023 right so they say scheduling automation platform up until then the category is kind of just abstracted away because they're solving such a hypers specific pain point right so if you are really doing something narrow you don't necessarily have to name it or put yourself an existing one if you're trying to do something bigger I think you do I think you either need to pick one that's emerging or you need to pick one that's mature got it makes sense and just to be clear so don't Don't Force It you don't you don't have to name a category but um if not then stick to sort of the the workflow side of things like name the workflow um you know focus on the functional aspect of what um Ser exactly and like another example would be zappier right like the way that people most people adopted zapier is they were Googling I want to integrate Google drive with kle and then a website popped up that said click this to integrate the two and all of a sudden you're in zapper you never even saw a category you just saw the specific workflow you came in you clicked it like wow this is amazing and you could abstract and think like well this is an automation tool but they don't actually have to say that anywhere so it's like again solving a hyper specific use case workflow job to be done whatever you want to call it potentially you don't actually have to stay the category I think it is helpful for you to say it's software versus a service right because sometimes people don't say that and they're like oh this is like a cool consulting company they like oh no we're actually software or vice versa so like at the very least you wanted to say we're an app or we're a Chrome extension or whatever it might be just so people know um last piece right was really around this like differentiation it's like why are you better and it's it's tackling two things it's the problem of the alternative and then your unique value usually through features capabilities and benefits so uh this is a concept that I think people have found helpful is really like the flips if the market looks at a job to be done through the lens of workflows companies are we look through the lens of a job to be done through a capability of a product so they're like two sides of the same coin it's really just which perspective are we describing it and so for example Loom right the capability is what do I do with the product I can record quick demonstration videos to share with the team the feature is the technical aspect that makes it possible then the benefit is really the outcome it drives right so cut down meetings by 29% um cly the sharable calendar link just lets others book time on your calendar that's the capability and really the benefit is the outcome you eliminate this back and forth uh coordination and so when you bring these things together you can really see there's two ways that you can differentiate as a as a company the first one is you say what we call differentiation by degree we do the same thing as other companies but just better faster cheaper whatever it might be or binary differentiation is we just do something completely different so dation by degree this is a company called Freckle we worked with them they're they do the same things as clay but they have a lower learning curve so they're saying you we do the same as men so we say it's a degree of difference um on the flip side binary would be something like campfire this is Jason freed from base camp and 37 signals he starts this slack competitor and the difference is you host it yourself on your own servers and you only pay for it once so that's a binary differentiation right that's like saying do I want to pay every month and have someone else H slack or do I want to host myself and pay for it one time there's no overlap of those two things so it's real binary differentiation that forces people to make a choice um so really those are the two sides so once you pull those things together this is a very loose structure of how you can lay this out on the homepage really it's these uh you know you could say four different sections or how depending how you want you break it up maybe you could say it's six sections but really this hero section is where you answer those those main positioning questions right you you show me the segmentation you show me the uh the categorization and the the differentiation right the three things who is this for what is this thing and why is it better this is another company we worked with called e weinar so you can see run hundreds of engaging webinars without you having to be there run webinars that's the workflow uh the differentiation is you don't have to be on them when they're running and then Melissa their founder she calls it an e webinar is actually the category that she say was different than a normal webinar it's different categories so if you're trying to run webinars the other way your competitive alternative would be you sitting on every single webinar actively running them now there's this new way you can run hundreds of them uh you don't even have to be on it it's this new category that type of deal so this is like where you take the answers to those position questions you put them on the hero and then the rest of the website is basically making your case and so we often say people should have a problem section which is laying out the problems of the alternative way of accomplishing the job to be done so you're tired of running the same live webinars over and over again right you never run webinars enough to meet people's schedule something always goes wrong you feel burnt out then we say you transition to the solution this is where you repitch the differentiation right turn your pre-recorded webinar this is where we're talking about capabilities benefits kind of summarized in a statement pre-recorded video into an automated webinar that actually performs better right that's like the unique value you provide and then we call this next section the 15-second product demo it's really what are the individual features capabilities and benefits that make the argument believable you're actually going to be able to deliver the value you're promising to deliver and we always say you should show parts of the product you should show show whether they're you know cool abstractions or not that's kind of up to you but you should be showing people exactly how am I going to do this because it's going to help them picture the workflow that they're going to use it with they can imagine sitting down they can imagine explaining it to the teams and if you don't ever connect the hoyy toyy high level stuff to like real life work it becomes really really difficult for people to internally Champion a specific solution to the rest of their company so I'll pause there that's basically the endend Fletch process uh there's obviously more to it but in a nutshell we're trying to help you figure out which bats you want to make picking a bat and then really fleshing it out with the supporting aspects and then we and then we document it on the homepage so everyone can see it and it doesn't have to be stuffed away in a Google drive folder somewhere no this was really really good I for me the biggest takeaways just to reiterate again I I think it for me it comes down to two words functionality or functional and capability like that's just going to for when you when you think about your product through that lens or the customer through the other lens talking about high level business outcomes almost becomes illogical like it just it just doesn't make sense so I think that's the biggest takeaway for me and through your content and your partner's content just you know focus on the product capabilities how that maps to the functional aspect the customer cares about and I think that's just going to allow you to get to that level of specificity that so people are going to understand your messaging so know this has been really really helpful smash the uh the showand tell format out of the park I appreciate that for sure and like to your point about business outcomes um sometimes people think you know me and Rob my co-founder we hate them and stuff we're like no no no you you got to keep these things in perspective right like business outcomes it's almost like a uh a final step it's like the final boss in a video game right like like if you can earn the champion who's usually like a director if you can earn their trust enough to bring in the other stakeholders to make this deal happen the final boss is that CFO who's like all right show me the ROI you know and that's where you actually have to deliver like well here's the last five clients that are very similar spot as you we implemented it you know and then after five or six months they saw this business outcome go up this side so it's like you earn the right to talk about business outcomes by first winning over all these other people who are not necessarily thinking about business outcomes in their day-to-day like again the the people who are doing like only live in business outcomes really high level Executives they're not in the nitty-gritty world of software decisions right like they are way high level and they basically say like okay here's our objective I want you teams to figure out the best way you should reach it the teams below come to some consensus we think you know we could hire a consultant Maybe one way maybe we want to buy this new software that's another way they make the case to the higher upups they say okay go out and let's let's try it and then they go through the whole process the people down low start evaluating software so it's like you have to keep these things everything you know there's the band radio ahead they have a song everything in its right place that's the point of this right like your main product positioning is for the champion the the person who's most likely going to be Champion you the rest of the people and almost never is the champion a sea level executive it's just not how it works and so speak make your positioning to the champion there's exponentially more directors than there are CEOs so you've automatically boosted your chances right if I'm like I really would love to land Salesforce as a client you don't write the website for Mark Benny off you're just not gonna get through to him and there's only one of them you like I couldn't get a hold of Mark I guess we'll never work with Salesforce it's like well what about the tens of thousands of directors that can potentially start this conversation you know like why did you just limit it to the one guy who's a multi-billionaire who lives on an island you know like let's be realistic so you write it for the right people business outcomes have a place just usually not in the primary product positioning awesome all right we can wrap it there this has been amazing thanks Anthony thanks so much for having me super fun