How to improve your value proposition with message testing

I'm on a quest to uncover the secrets to crafting the perfect SAS website. In each episode, I talk with product marketing professionals, sharing their hot takes on the future of B2B websites, as well as tactical breakdowns on how to better understand your customers and activate buyers faster. Today, I'm joined by Gab Bald, a product marketer with several years of experience who specializes in helping B2B SAS startups solve message market fit. and he does this by taking them through his message testing framework, which is what we're going to be discussing in today's episode. Let's jump in. Uh excited to to jump into this. So, let's start from the the very top because I know you you did some research recently. Just why have you launched this message testing framework? You know, was it something you you learned about working with these startups? Like why is this a topic you're you're so interested in? That's a good question. Um basically just for context I'm working mainly with uh startup founders and a big part of those startup founder I'm working with in BTB SAS you know ICP is improperly defined messaging is an afterthought of 10 time and when it is it's just basically a whiplash of hey let's try this out let's test it and prior to being consultant I was seeing it with a lot of like sales lab B2B S startups of let's test it out let's test it out and then you're seeing those outbound campaigns, you're seeing those emails go out and when the question is getting asked, okay, but which one of the is the best, it's not practical. It's not practically significant and it's basically just guesswork. It's like you cannot do any conclusion out of those tests, that data and everything. So already I started with like a bias of okay messaging and message testing is is an afterthought for those startups. But then I was curious to see what was the current state for product marketers. So I did a survey. I can actually share it right now if you want if you want to check it out. But um I did a survey out of like 63 product marketers and hopefully I wanted to have more than that. But I think it's giving us kind of a clear understanding of the situation.

It I basically ask three questions. Who is responsible of messaging in your company? Um then I ask how are you are you currently message testing like how are you testing the performance of your messaging and how would you grade it out of five and basically what I got was first of all 45% of product marketers are taking the lead on messaging and then it's split between different departments so if you're not in a good relationship with your CEO with product with your CMO with your VP of marketing uh chances are your power and your ownership on messaging is very fragmented. So we can see here 45% of the rest is it's just go either to marketing the product team it's co or leadership that have the last laugh on it or it's a share ownership and then when we start talking about message testing I realize that 40% of product marketers have no formal process to test their messaging and what I mean no formal process is it's not an ongoing system it's either okay so let's do an AV test with the new homepage or let's run a few things and out of those 63 PMMS only 25% had structured processes and most of them were in in bigger companies and I still start out with like 51 to 200 and 200 and more. So I realized okay so based on that data there's a gap product marketers don't necessarily know how to message test properly. they don't always have the budget to go run a winter test or they just don't know how to essentially have the buying of stakeholders. And I'll I'll go through it a little bit deeper before we kind of chat about it. But when we take a look at how they test messaging, a big part of it is with sales and pipeline metrics, uh website and digital performance, product adoption, and conversion metrics. So it's like a big pie of different flavors that if you look at it like that, okay, if sales are up, what does that mean for a conversion metric? What does that mean for the product adoption? So I just decided to kind of go a bit deeper and try to understand why they gave it that score, the average score, what like 66%. Which would make it a five. Uh and then based on that I identified those challenges and I was like okay well if the problems are stakeholder alignment buy in times and resources constraint and not having a structure uh way to test your messaging consistently. I'll just take all of my product marketing experience, all of my growth marketing experience and I'll just create like the most valuable resource I can and that's about it. That was like the I guess the the idea that sparked the the the motion of creating something like that. Nice.

So it it may be obvious to to you as someone who's created this framework and I consider myself to be a bit of a messaging advocate. Um yeah, not an expert but certainly an advocate. I think it's um you know I just see it such as as an important part. But what is the argument for message testing? Like what are the benefits and why should people even like care about that? Because clearly there's a lack of adoption for message testing. Um and so why do you think PMM or or founders or whoever else is is controlling this? Why do you think they should do it? Yeah, that's a good question. And I I'll I'll steal an example, a metaphor from Peplea from Winter. He said, "Imagine going to a sales meeting and all of the webcams are off of the people you're pitching your solution and they are on mute. So all you do is just you talking in front of those webcams and you don't know the reaction. You don't know what they're seeing, how they're reacting with their faces and everything." This is what's happening when you don't message test because there's a gap and you are basically throwing money at something and hoping it works. So that's kind of like a big interesting metaphor for that. But also it's the fact that I heard about a company recently that is spending millions in paid ads and the amount of qualifier opportunities they're getting out of it is crazy. Like the average acquisition cost is like out of this world. It doesn't make sense at all for a startup of this size. This is something that isn't isolated. A lot of those companies when you're starting you're doing outbound you're trying to support your pipeline with one or two different marketing channels when you're started when the ICP is well defined message testing should be top of your priority because messaging isn't a set it and forget it motion as you as you know like we cannot just say oh okay messaging is done cool the market won't change for the next 5 years let's cross our arms and hoping for the best right Everything is changing and this is where notion of message marketed come in. It's a moving target. When you have a signal or a trigger that your messaging needs to be improved, it's usually because your positioning isn't convincing enough or people are not understanding it. And it's the sole foundation of everything.

Your business objective, your road map, and your positioning are all aligned together. So if one of those is less strong or weak, it's basically putting you to a lot of huge mistakes and potentially a lot of revenue pitfalls that can happen. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So I guess before we we jump into we we'll get into the framework. um when kind of two questions. I'll start with the first one and and maybe you don't have a bias here or a preference um but do you think startups should test me messaging on any specific channel like let's say they can't focus on all channels strapped for resources as you know every company is. Do you think there's any would you prioritize any given like channel to test message in or are you just channel agnostic and it's like you know just whatever your primary channel is like do you have any preference or biases towards specific channels? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean this framework works well with um the go to market motion of salesled because outbound as you know it's accessible you can run a lot of volume you can play a lot with it it's basically like your copy of your emails are coming from your messaging your messaging documentation uh always say that it needs to be a good alignment internally. So if you have channels that you're currently using, it's best to just concentrate the effort towards it. But the way I'm kind of approaching it, and we'll go to a deeper together, the way I'm kind of approaching it is it's basically a two week process of stress testing. So, we try to make things work together into let's try to get a conversion uplift from an uplift objective.

And during those two weeks, what we're trying to do is, hey, let's align sales and marketing together, let's just push a lot of that messaging hypothesis that we formed. And then afterward, once we have or we don't have those uplet objective achieved, we can use that to do more long-term qualitative testing. So testing messaging is basically a way to testing your positioning because this is supported by your messaging. If we want to take a look at the data, the quantitative data, it's more towards the realm of copy testing. And it doesn't mean that it's a problem. It's just that you will basically use those two weeks to concentrate the effort together and then validating it in a more long-term interviews, surveys, u sales objective and everything. Sweet. Sounds good. All right. I'm excited to to jump into it. Cool. Super. Uh yeah, the first thing I I kind of want to tackle with you is um you cannot test your messaging if you don't have the right foundation. So what I mean by that and I'll show my screen in a second. What I mean by that is um if I go to my boss, okay, I'm a PM, I go to my boss and I'm like, okay, uh I want to I want to change our positioning. I want to change our messaging and you don't have like a cause or something.

It's becoming a game of well, how strong is your influence right now? And I'm sure a lot of PMMs that are listening might be struggling with this, right? If you're not solving an urgent problem, if your ICP is super vague, if you have no research or no ideas, if you don't have a core messaging document, message testing is like the last step you should think about because you need to kind of fix those early foundation. However, message testing can be like a good segue for you to say, "Hey, let's work on this." And because those foundation are not strong enough, we need to test it and then use that to go further. So, the first step to me is always try to figure out if your messaging needs improvement. If you start with basically reasons why your messaging needs to be improved, you can come in with a committee and again I know messaging by committee is a kind of a red flag but you can come in and be hey we have a problem right now. This is my hypothesis on that problem and I I think this is costing us a lot of revenue that could be a low hanging fruit for us. So it can be lagging indicators you know low end rate with high traffic poor leads to opportunity conversion prospect that are misunderstanding your value prop and then you can also have stuff with your product team but ultimately there's a bunch of ways to improve your messaging well to find signals and to improve it.

You one of my favorite one is you work with sales or you get on sales calls or product marketer which I highly recommend and you just ask this question to prospect in what category would you put a product that's it you just ask about it because a category is bringing the market context of your positioning right am I buying an interactive demo or am I buying a CRM all of this where are you trying to push in your category or whether you're associating to a subwo or whatever, you need to kind of ask this question. If someone is telling you, oh, you guys are a database, right, of well, we're more of a data warehouse, like it doesn't matter. You don't even have to keep the conversation going in that direction. All you need to do is jot down and then take a look at, well, are people in the standing right now based on all of those arrays of calls if we're in the right category? If not, again, your positioning might need work, hence your messaging. uh AI right the buzzword of the year uh there's a lot of way on how you can for example run a compensated analysis with AI so on the framework there's a deep research prompt I added here that you add your competitors your industry key features of differentiation and then it will give you a lot uh of output that you can then use of saying okay well based on what we're understanding right now we might have a positioning gap which translate into a messaging problem you can also mine product social review so Uh, this is something that we don't always think about, but Reddit, G2, or a feedback source. You can use perplexity deep research to just get a lot of those information out out of the door and then use that to create your messaging uh hypothesis. Uh, so I'll just take a pause here because I said a lot. Don't know if you have follow-up question on what I said or if we can go with what I mean by messaging hypothesis.

Uh, yeah, let's keep it rolling. I I I do like the point about um I think you called it the positioning temperature check. Yeah. Um you know, as someone who's building a startup at the moment, it's always interesting to to hear what bucket or category um people put you in. And and sometimes it's not the bucket you want to be put in. And so it's a good it's so simple. Um something I've used in past research is uh how would you describe this product to like a friend or colleague? Yeah. Um which helps you sort of understand the position but also uh the value proposition as well like how do they explain how do they try to sell the product to their own friend in like a casual conversation. Um so yeah I love that point but yeah happy to keep rolling. Cool. But yeah this one is this one can be brutal. Um I worked uh when I was working in the business development agency, I was a product marketing lead. So my role was doing positioning and messaging for startups that don't even know what those terms are. It was it was pretty challenging but fun. And one of the company uh was basically it was basically data warehouse and they were creating reports for a handful of clients. So if I want to have a custom report uh I asked them what data I want they map it out from a data warehouse.

So the I think it's called not sure if it was the framing basically the populating of the data on the report was super fast compared to uh using other solution and like we went in a bit debacle and I was like guys you are a service this is not a product there's a product element to it but you're a service and the co-founder was like no no we're a product people are calling us like a product like yeah but from a positioning standpoint it was more detrimental to them to be a product than to be a service. So the angle we play was like well you can use a product like your data science person can use a product but ultimately we have a service that is premium that you can use and we're going to be populating those reports for you. So again like you need to be honest with yourself which as we know as product marketers it's uh challenging sometimes to work with founders for sure. Um it's it's founder ego right like no it's almost like um no our product does this and that's the only way and I think that causes a lot of problems for startups because the market you know the market has its own interpretation and what do you care about acquiring the right type of customers or being right you know exactly exactly and it's like there's also the fact that um we often think too much in terms of capabilities and this is happening a lot with technical founders. I'm working mainly with them.

But how can I create a new piece of tech that no one has? How can I create a technological mode? And it's good up to a point, but there's three other elements. And this is from my friend Johnken U from In the Kitchen. He's basically has a framework called the 4C framework. And it's not just capability, but it's convenience, credibility, and cost. You have three other layers that you can use to differentiate your solution and stack advantages towards it. But we don't always think of that. or just how can I create the new chat GPT or the new uh awesome feature that no one knows. Okay, fine. You might be a talented engineer, you might be able to do that, but there's a lot of elements that go into a buying decision and sometimes just taking different angle of making it more convenience to do stuff or having a different pricing model can change a lot for sure. Now, messaging hypothesis, what the hell do I mean that at? So the way I kind of tackle it is there's different components problem, messaging gap, uplift objectives, actions and triggers. So basically the format is our problem is caused by messaging gap and is creating KPI movement or in that case uplift objective. To fix this we should act on messaging gap by doing action because of trigger. So an example I did here with freckle which is a clay alternative. uh let's say their demold to close rate is low or low demote to close rate is due to confusion about what the product does which is a messaging gap and it's creating a 20% shortfall in qualify opportunities. So basically in that case the upload objective would be okay well we're trying to fix that shortfall of 20%. To fix this, we should act on cloudy and ease of use for nontechnical users messaging app by clearly differentiating oursel from clay the action because sales call recording and social monitoring and clay learning surveys show that prospects struggle to understand how we compare the trigger.

So by using that hypothesis, whether it doesn't seem like that or not, we're solving a big problem for product marketers, which is dodging the hippo, the highest paid person opinion. when you bring that even if it's cultivated when you bring an hypothesis it's like well based on those signals I understand that our messaging is caused by this issue this problem and all of those elements and it's also talking about the specific action we can we can do together to fix it so in that case when we talk about confusion to what the product does uh and we'll talk about it later but I created a resource called the message market fits scorecard and it's basically five different pillars of messaging and the messaging gap in that case should be linked to those pillars. So whether it's uh ICP alignment, clarity, emotion, consistency and uh so clarity, emotion, differentiation, consistency and ICPn so based on the signal based on the discussion you have internally you're able to create that hypothesis and then you are able to create that comedy which is I call it the messaging vi uh minimum viable messaging team. So you have your founder, your product, marketing, sales and your PMM. And the goal is hey this is the hypothesis. What do we think about it? And the way we kind of formulated it is we had those five pillars and we're we're the PMM is basically hosting a workshop when we ask everyone to kind of come in because messaging is impacting all of them on different angles and we want them to self-grade different elements out of five of those pillars. What's happening is you want to understand if internally we have the same narrative. If the founder thinks it's five all across the board but product marketing and sales are not thinking that way, how can we in a logical sense be relevant to our prospects and our market if we're not even on the same wavelength internally?

Right? So that's the idea. The idea is let's trust data. It's to bring that narrative of I'm not the highest paid person here, but for the next quarter, let me cook. Let me do my stuff. Let me come up with that hypothesis that we realize based on our workshop and let's stress test the hell out of it for two weeks before validating what why we believe it's a messaging gap. Got it. Made sense. I like it. Minimal is it minimal viable messaging team? Yeah. I I know we we we have way too many uh uh acronyms in tech but uh I felt obliged to do this one. Awesome. Yeah, let's keep going. Yeah. So once once this is done again this is what I was talking to you about different pillars and different stuff like that. Uh again there's the different elements with like ICP element differentiation clary and emotion. I think it's there somewhere but I have a custom template I can show you here on myro. So this is accessible as well and it's basically uh how everything works together. So I'll show you some stuff for the workshop. Um it's basically the step that I talked to you about. So identifying discrepancies and score would show us that there's a misalignment. Uh we set the outlet objective based on the weakest pillar.

So improving quality because everyone has been scoring it two uh out of five and because of that we realize we have a positioning problem. So this is the messaging hypothesis and this is a messaging gap. So uh one or two are basically there's a misalignment tree is average you know there's some cloudy bit inconsistency four and five usually show a strong messaging uh and what I did is I basically is showing you uh the different scores so this is example on how uh people would frame those. So you probably heard a lot of oh you know our solution is good for all B2B tech company in North America. our race. It could be more precise otherwise you'll waste time uh you know trying to sell to everyone. Your P will be full. You won't have a notion of what the anti-ACP is. There's a lot of stuff like that and I'm just basically kind of showcasing all of them and at the end you can kind of start with your upload objective. So this is just an example here but like click to rate on link ads, conversion rate on landing pages, uh acceptance rate, link and reply rate. Those are just examples, but it's basically a way for you to uh start with an upload objective. So, if we improve our cloudy score from two to four, for example, by removing jargon and simplifying our messaging, we could get a higher conversion rate by 2% as an upload objective. Uh this is basically the scorecard for all of the people in the uh minimal viable messaging team. And at the end, what you'd get is an hypothesis with out of objectives. So let's say we have the 2% conversion rate. We take a look at the messaging objective of improving clarity together as a team because you cannot do that alone, right? You if you have sales, product, marketing and your founder behind you, it's going to be so much easier to test your message. Do you think this hypothesis would provide the expected objective uplift? If no, well, you need to review the messaging hypothesis or a objective.

If there's a consensus, then you can start message testing. And if not, don't message test. Your goal should not be to spend more efforts and time if we don't think we can have an uplift with this, right? We want to be able to track and fix it and link into revenue. If you have 20 visits per month on your website, if you're sending 30 emails per month, if you are basically in the curse of obscurity and no one know who you are, I'm sorry, but spending those efforts, spending a $2,000 budget for two weeks to stress test your messaging won't give you the required ROI that makes sense. And if you still decide to go with it, then it's just becoming a game of how can I how can I justify this expense? And that's another discussion, but it can be pretty brutal. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. No, I like it. Um, so I I read somewhere, I'm not sure if you explicitly called it out, that you recommend to run these um in two week sprints. Yeah. How often do you think messaging should be tested?

Because I do agree that it's it's it's um it shouldn't remain static, right? Competitors entering the market. Uh the general market at a macro level is always changing. ICP definition is always being refined. Uh new products are being released. There's all these sort of changes happening. Do you think there's any be I don't like best practice but any kind of best practice um frequency to conduct this or just any talk that's a good question. The thing is like this resource is the message testing starter pack. So I'm not seeing this as the ultimate guide that will will fix message testing for everyone. But I'm seeing it as you have no notion right now what to do. This is the starting point of what you should do. Ultimately, if we talk about the timeline, I think product marketers should and again like this is most of the groundwork um at first like you want to stress test and everything but once the committee is is well I should call it the MBM team once that thing has been created the input becomes a bit more minimal everyone is aligned you know what are the gaps you are trying to test it to validate or invalidate your hypothesis is I think it should be done on a on a quarterly basis but then you don't need to do it because you need to do it. Make sure that there's actually sign that are telling you that your messaging needs to be improved. If you do it for a quarter and then it doesn't show the optimal objectives and it doesn't validate your messaging hypothesis, do something else the next quarter. But if it's working, if you're not seeing drastic changes or trends in your market, just increase the budget, increase your activities because now you know it's resonating. Now you probably have the results and the ROI that you've been looking for and now you're able to link your messaging to actual revenue.

So I think in a minimum up to a point you should always take a look at it and see what's happening out of it on a quarterly basis. But that doesn't mean that you should message test it every quarter. It's more of a case by case situation. But uh this timeline should be within a quarter and then based on that on the results you're having on the uplifts and everything. Then you might be thinking okay let's let's run it back next quarter. But now we have the system already. Uh and you can basically improve and just make it run a bit smoother every quarter if needed. For sure. for sure. Okay. Yeah, get that. So, like I spoke with um someone at like a I guess a fairly large startup maybe a few hundred employees and they said every quarter is typically where they report on messaging directory product marketing manages it um collaborates with demand gen content and they're aligning on and and measure um the impact of messaging. But for for the actual testing, I agree. Um, you I was when I was doing some research the other day, uh, a PMM said, you know, there's certain trigger trigger events that might happen that if they do happen, could be a good time to test your messaging. For example, you notice um, a dip in win uh, win rates for certain competitors. And so maybe the competitor has kind of uh, innovated a bit and it's time to revisit message. how do we actually differentiate and and win against them?

Launching new product modules um stuff like that. So yeah, I agree um that when these certain trigger events happen, that could be a good chance to are we actually still communicating the right thing. Yeah. And and that's also kind of a good way like if right now you have no way of um tracking or monitoring what the competition or how the market is acting. It's a very good uh starting projects to get into that mindset, right? Um and you can be more proactive as well. Hey, we saw that the competition did this. It's a trigger event. Let's run something by it. Or for example, um I did it with one of my client in the uh the health uh the HR tech space. Um a competitor actually launched like an updated version of their product and it was like the perfect moment for us to tweak the positioning on the convenience and cost aspect that I talked earlier. So those companies are usually uh selling to enterprise and they are basically helping with mental health uh benefits.

Um so what we did is we decided to run a specific offer where you're charging only by the people that are actually um using those benefits. So instead of being stuck in a two, three years contract and paying like a lot of money for that and having those benefit managers trying to uh justify those expenses. So hey, we have paid for it now we're trying to increase the otization is becoming a game of we can try it out with a bunch of employees showing the ROI directly because we're only paying for those and then increasing the number of headcounts that are getting access to this. And again, we're still working on that, but the timing could not not have been more perfect because that competitor is charging 23x, but the convenience and cost isn't there at all. And the industry is still struggling with that. So, it's just a way of being okay, cool, and this is we're using exactly the same framework I talked to you about like we're having a dedicated landing page with a specific angle. So if you talk about the fact that uh clarity is the gap here now what we're doing is we're testing different angles. So it can be pain driven benefit driven product driven and this is when the copy kind of go into play and now we can identify okay well those different angles those different test angles uh are we seeing the uplift based on what we talked about but all of this is coming from our messaging pillar which in that case was a clarity clarity part. Got it. Yeah. So tying it back to the pillar, I think that's important. Um I think I guess I I see a particular of early stage startups is they sort of begin with copy that what they put on their channel whether it be email, website, social isn't actually based on messaging and so there's never that like feedback loop of like linking it back to a core like a pillar or a value proposition. Um, so yeah, I think I think SAS companies in general are going to have to become a lot more performance-driven on the product marketing side. That's my opinion. I don't know if this is going to happen, but I just think there's a a huge gap there at the moment with SAS companies where like for example, you know, as part of your survey, not a lot of companies are are running structured tests. I think we're heading to an era where this is going to be um survival.

Like you you have to know what customers care about. You have to know how to position and differentiate your product. Otherwise, you know, a bootstrap cheap competitor is is going to, you know, uh is going to build a product that's going to be more convenient, more price effective, and they're just going to take your lunch money. So, yeah, 100%. You're 100% right, Lee. And it's like today, you know, we seen a couple of posts with like the death of SAS because of cursor because of just that that AI way when you can just create something and I I can't code for but I can create like a a SAS in two days almost. Um I think this is why there's more urgency and I I 100% agree with you that product marketers needs to be more tied to revenue which again is one of the objective I'm trying to to to answer and fix with this because the problem is and I've been in those shoes before. I was working for an enterprise. I was working with nine talented PMMs and we're all in not the same problem but all of us had different product lines. And when you're not datadriven and able to link your efforts to revenue, hence messaging, hence positioning, those core uh function of product marketing. What's happening? Okay. Well, Gab has been trying to work on like positioning and messaging, but we have no system. This is not our priority. What we want is revenue, but revenue comes when you're able to measure and understand what's happening, right? So, because of that, what's happening is people are saying, well, I mean, Gab is unable to link to messaging or or positioning, but we're still paying him, right? It's not like I'm a contractor. I'm just getting pay a salary every two weeks or week or or month. Uh so because of that well okay if he can't work on this we can ask him to help them to create sales deck or we can ask him to help that launch or whatever. So you're transforming your function into an asset creating one which is problematic because now you're doing stuff that people wants you to do but does it really bring everything together? To me product marketing is feedback loops. How can everyone works better together so we can achieve our goals together as a team? So if you're unable to have that revenue equation, of course, you cannot measure everything. But if you're unable to have like that baseline of our messaging is bring us X ROI. Let's expand it. I'm the cause of this because I work with everyone to push it. You're becoming invaluable a lot more than I'm the guy that makes pretty sales deck, you know?

Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe we'll, who knows what the future looks like. Maybe product marketing will get to a a spot where those sort of outcomes, those, you know, incremental lifts um are incentivized somehow. And I think really turning the role into sort of performance driven. I don't know, maybe that's an unrealistic future, but it's it's it's a huge impact, right? Just absolutely huge impact on a business. Uh like messaging really is the glue of go to market. Um and you know small incremental improvements there can have a huge impact and people should be incentivized to do that and rewarded. Um so yeah maybe another realistic future but I see the direction and I like I like that I approve because and again this might be a hot take but we had Kyle Coleman CMO of copy.ai guy uh on the pod and he said like we asked him a question. and he was saying that product marketers should be as close as sales as possible and Eric one of my co-host asked as asked him uh how much pipeline have you generated and he's a CMO right the chief marketing officer he said I'm the number one sales rep in the company he was responsible for 250 uh K in the pipeline generated it's easy to say oh I'm not doing this you know I'm in marketing I don't touch sales But I feel if there's a role that should at least embrace it and be uncomfortable with sales and that can be ultra successful with it, it's PMM. Like to me, a great PMM is someone who isn't scared of jumping in on the sales calls with a rep and making them learn something on the way they're talking about a product on the outcomes you can bring to it. Like it should be that you know the positioning, you know, the messaging as much as possible.

Your goal is to come in and be like, "Okay, well, we believe if we take back the me mental health example, we believe that uh enterprise and global companies should have access all employees should have access to unlimited mental health that is covered with their in network providers in the US." Oh, okay. I don't really believe in that. Okay, cool. You're not a fit. If you don't believe into our positioning, into the way that we're thinking, why would I try to convince you that our product is good for you? you always see it as an expense versus something that is necessary. And if a product marketer is able to jump on calls and have exactly what they've been writing and dropping on those drives, why wouldn't you not follow that personal lead? If I'm a top sales rep and I'm seeing Gab, the PMM who never really sold something in his life, coming in and crushing it with crushing it with like uh the approach that he's been working on. Uh hey, this is working. This is a proof that this is working. Why would I not follow this guy lead? Yeah, absolutely. Um, did you have anything else to to walk through or should should we wrap it up there? I think we can wrap up. Like basically this is this is a good kind of a little candy of what I worked on. But um the last thing I would add is because this is the quest to the perfect SAS website. A big part of of those tests to me is the behavioral analysis. So having a or Microsoft clarity in those pages that you want to bring that traffic in with those different channels is key because if people are looking at specific texts that you have on your website, if there's dropup points, if there's replays at different spot, if there's quitback or rage quits, all of that will give you a semblance of understanding of what's happening. And this is up to a point. This is qualitative. It can give you a lot of interesting angles and then it will either reinforce or invalidate your messaging hypothesis. But once you have that and once you're able to validate that this is linked to your ICP, this is when you're getting the money. This is when you're able to come in with like, hey, I I went with all those angles.

This is not something that is halfbaked. That's the direction we're taking. And you're just creating a lot more in France internally by doing so. Sweet. All right. Cheers. appreciate you you running through that. And I heard through the grapevine there might be a solution that helps people measure quantitatively on their website what what buyers are resonating with uh as well. But I heard just some whiskers. All right. Cheers, Gab. Thank you, man. Cheers.